Help to identify the car I just received

[Simnut]

First time poster and first time antique car owner.  I've tried to do some research on this running Buick which I was told is a 1926.  But, I have a feeling it's a 1923 2 door sedan going by looks and engine number. And now I'm getting totally confused LOL  Hence me coming to the experts here and see if I can get any answers.  This maybe a combination of two vehicles...I don't know.

 

WB: 118"

Engine #: 909339 (Stamped on the drivers side near the oil pan and towards the front)

Frame #:  869070 (On a small plaque mounted on the frame, drivers side behind the front wheel)

6 Bolts showing on rear hubs

12 Bolts showing on front hubs

Only has rear brakes (In '24 they went to front and rear brakes, correct me if I'm wrong)

Top rad hose enters the engine in two locations on the top

Artillery wheels

Round air intake manifold

Split front window

Gabrielle snubbers all the way around

 

I am taking pictures today....but will need to figure out how to load them up here.  Any help would be muchly appreaciated!!!!!!! 

 

Ps: My question...what year and model do I have?

 

Harry

Edited September 5, 2018 by Simnut (see edit history)

[Simnut]

Well, not too hard to put up pics.....so...here are some.

[Simnut]

[Hubert_25-25]

The fire wall in the engine compartment has a tag on it.  It will say something like 23-48 which would be a 1923 model 48.  You should have an engine number tag on the carburetor side of the engine block.  There is also a serial number tag on the frame in the left front wheel area near where the steering arm comes thru. 

That is a nice looking car.   Did you get a title?  Welcome and thanks for posting pictures.    Hugh

[Leif Holmberg]

1923 first year with that type of fenders.

Leif in Sweden

[Simnut]

1 hour ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

The fire wall in the engine compartment has a tag on it.  It will say something like 23-48 which would be a 1923 model 48.  You should have an engine number tag on the carburetor side of the engine block.  There is also a serial number tag on the frame in the left front wheel area near where the steering arm comes thru. 

That is a nice looking car.   Did you get a title?  Welcome and thanks for posting pictures.    Hugh

 

Here in BC I will be going for a builders registration when I'm ready to get it on the road.  It's drive"able" right now but needs some work.  lol  

I believe I found the engine number but it was stamped into the block .  It is 909339.  The serial number  is 869070.  It came to me as a '26 but the numbers and the brakes didn't add up to that.

Thanks for the welcome also sir!

Edited September 5, 2018 by Simnut (see edit history)

[Simnut]

1 hour ago, Leif Holmberg said:

1923 first year with that type of fenders.

Leif in Sweden

 

Are you able to determine what model it is sir?  I think you are correct with the year.  I will also look for the tag that Hugh mentioned and post if and when I find it .

 

Hugh, there is no tag on the firewall

Edited September 5, 2018 by Simnut (see edit history)

[Hubert_25-25]

Your engine number looks to be 1923, but the frame may be 1 year earlier.  

 

[ROD W]

What a great original  23  Model 41 you have there.  Even with the trunk.  This was the first year for the two door sedan/coach.  They came out in both the six and the four cylinder.

[Simnut]

Thanks for all the help gents!!!!  You are steering me in the correct direction!  And I appreciate it very much.  You will see me on this board asking for a LOT more advice!  Thanks again!

[Simnut]

Here is a question that I am struggling with.  Is the value in this car as a survivor.....a restored car or using those sweet body lines with a more modern chassis?  The latter was my original intention  but the more I research her....the more I'm not sure that's the way to go.  What is your learned opinion sirs?  I do realize it's not a collector car...any advice?

[Grimy]

Most of us on this site will encourage you to keep the original driveline.  For any vintage vehicle, be aware of both the capabilities and limitations.  Two of the limitations are speed and braking.  Plan on 35-40 mph cruise (add 10-15) if you add an overdrive.  You'll have 2-wheel brakes, as do my two oldest cars below.  That limitation is that, although I can lock up the wheels, only two small tire patches work on the pavement; one must drive carefully.  That said, your car is about to turn 96 years old and is a marvelous, instructive artifact that will give you and many members of the public much joy as it bears witness to what the industry produced in that period.

 

I've driven my 1918 Pierce 3,700 miles since acquiring it in January 2016, and in the next five weeks I'll put another 1,200 miles on it on three tours.  I tell everyone this car provides me and others "more smiles per mile" than any other car I've ever had.

 

At very least, I urge you to defer any judgment to change it until you have this car properly sorted and experience what only an original car of this vintage can provide!

[Hubert_25-25]

Since there is no original paint, I don't see it going the "survivor" route.  The charm of these cars is to have them take you back to the era IMO.  Most on this site focus on putting the cars back as original - restored.  Installing a modern drivetrain will help it go faster and stop better, but there are so many other items that fall short of being available on modern cars, I would not go thru the effort.  You have a much more engaging conversation with others when you show people that the state of the art at the time was rod operated brakes with bands and on the rear wheels only.  In the next 2 years almost all if not all manufacturers move to 4 wheel brakes.  Your car is like the 80's technology boom only in the 20's with a mechanical car.  There are some upgrades that you can do to what you have, but the simplest thing to do is get the mechanicals functioning, see how you like it, and then make the decision to stick with it or do a conversion.   If the motor is operational, it will bring more if it is in running condition if you do decide to change the drive train.   You have a rare and expensive car for its day.  We can help you with correct colors too.  I find it interesting that certain models were painted 1 color for a year.  Your car was a medium maroon color.  I find even the fact that you have a trunk on the car is very unique, as most cars only had a small amount of storage under the seat or you put your stuff on the running boards.  

Edited September 6, 2018 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Leif Holmberg]

Here are the place where to find the "tag" on the cowl. Picture of the model you have,scanned from the really good and useful book"70 Yeras of Buick,by George  H Dammann

That`s a very rare model of a 1923 Buick.

Leif in Sweden.

[Simnut]

Gentlemen, I am taking all your advice to heart......please be assured of that.  The reason I asked for advice regarding what I should do with the car is because I was starting to realize that she may not deserved to be converted, she needs to stay original as possible.  As I mentioned before, she is a running car, I drove it up and off my equipment trailer on a very steep roadway.  She even spun the right rear wheel (in the dirt) , no blue smoke coming out of the tail pipe and has an awesome sound.  All the parts for the headlights, spare tire mount (including the spare tire) etc are there.  Things such as the Gabrielle snubbers need to be rebuilt....but even the webbing is still there.  I enjoy woodwork ....so working on the interior wouldn't be an issue.  All the gauges and clock work......

 

The more I go over the car, the more I start to appreciate the era as mentioned by my advisors here.    Like you've said, the conversations that would arise when people walk up to her and inspect her are worth it alone!

 

I may just have to find another candidate for a conversion which entered my mind even after the first day I had her....hence all my questions.  Stand by for many more questions over the next month or two. Part of the enjoyment is the research of such a vehicle.

[J.H.Boland]

Welcome to the most helpful vintage car forum on the internet. I understand this is your first really old car and also that you originally had aspirations to go the modified route.Before you do that, Google "vintage car wrecks" or something like that on Images. None of us wants an accident, but to have a serious one in a car like this would be nasty. I watched a pair of videos on line recently showing crash tests of a 1929 and a 1959 Chevrolet. They don't build them like they used to, thankfully. I own four pre-WW2 cars and have been in the hobby since 1961. I love them the way they were built, and am fully aware of their limitations in today's fast,distracted, impaired world. As has already been stated here, fix it up to the point where you can experience what driving a 96 year old car is like and enjoy the comments from fans at the shows. I recently won a fan favorite trophy with my '25 Buick coupe at a mostly rod and custom type event. it's nice to know that these rarely seen originals can still draw admirers .If you want to drive daily in today's traffic, drive a modern car.

Jim

[Morgan Wright]

[Simnut]

I think I may have found a perfect first project car gents.  This one.  I think I will spend the winter doing what I can to restore this one as much as I can to original (not new) condition. She drives as she sits now....smells awesome and has good bones.   Learn as much as I can about this girl and keep her as she has been for the last 95 years.  I will keep an eye out for a hot rod project during that time but I don't think I can nor do I want to, corrupt this one.  What you all have been saying is sinking in.  If this one disappears, it's one less 1923 Buick out there and that shouldn't happen nor do I want to be responsible for that.  As with posters here, there is pride in keeping original cars original and showing them to others....let them learn about vehicle history.  Besides...it fits great on my equipment trailer, meaning I can go to car shows that are of some distance etc. without having to drive there.  I live on Vancouver Island in BC, Canada and roads like the Malahat are not conducive to this vehicle   Besides, I think I have a wealth of resources and advice right here, all in one place. 

 

As an added note, I type in this car in Google and don't find many examples of this particular model so I will be on here ad nauseam and "bug" my consultants on here.  Anyone else here have a similar car? 

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Simnut (see edit history)

[jscheib]

I am surprised that we have not seen Mark Shaw comment on this thread, but he is often on the Pre-War forum.  Try to reach him for help.  He live in WA near Portland, OR.

 

John

[Simnut]

So, my signature is correct then?  As far as model of car?

[jbbuick22]

Hi,

  It looks like a model 41, because of the trunk, but I think the 41 has a 124" wb  I think a model 40 would have 118"

The body tag should be above the right toe board should say 23-6-41?

Where are you located? A pic of the back would help id

There are many of us that would be willing to help.

 

Welcome,

John  1922-6-55 Sport touring

[Mark Shaw]

Harry,

    Congratulations on your new old Buick!  I have been a bit busy lately working on my own Buicks; and that is why I am a bit late to these postings.  I recently disassembled a 23 Buick for Brian Heil and still have a few left over parts if you need them.  There are also three other 23 Buick owners who live near me in SW Washington.  So you will have lots of help in getting your car in shape for touring.  Just let us know what you need in the way of parts or information and I am sure you will be able to get what you need... 

     Send me a PM with your email address & I will get you in touch with another Buick owner on Vancouver Island.

Edited September 6, 2018 by Mark Shaw (see edit history)

[dibarlaw]

Simnut:

 Welcome to the forum. I concur with the above comments. We are all at the ready to offer assistance. I believe there have been 3 of these model 41s show up on the forum over the last 2 years. One was a very nice, very original, family owned vehicle for sale. I have yet to locate the notice. But it was a color photo car in "The Buick A Complete History". One was on the Richmond VA craigslist as something hibernating since the 1940s. I did find the thread on that and have included a photo.

There are more images of this car on the BING search.

There was one other which I have not located in similar condition to the one in the photo. Also several of the 4 cylinder versions have surfaced (Model 23-38). As of the last BCA roster there was only (1) 23-41. In older rosters I know there were more. There are more images on the BING search

 

 

 

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by dibarlaw
Added content (see edit history)

[Marty Roth]

Simnut, you’ve received som excellent advice and are going in a proper direction, at least in my opinion. Thee are plenty of other candidates out there which would be more appropriate to streetrod.

 

Welcome to the forum. Some of the best folks and advice anywhere!

[jeff_a]

Harry,

   A lot of good people on the AACA & Buick Forums, like Mark Shaw and Terry Wiegand, who may be able to help you with identification(looks like some people already have). I like the looks of the car. It's in much better shape than a lot of people start with. You could have started with something like this:

A 4-cylinder 1923 Buick selling at a Saskatchewan auction on Sept. 15th. Mack  Auction Company photo

 

Yours looks a lot better! That's great that it runs......and you drove it up a steep slope. I looked in my copy of The Standard Catalog of American Cars 1805-1942(Kimes and Clark,1612 pages) and it has yours the third most expensive Buick you could buy in '23 of the 15 styles and models available. $865-$2,195 was the range, $1,935 for the 2-door 5-P Touring Sedan and $2,195 for the 7-P Sedan. A 5-Pass. 4-dr. Sedan was the 2nd most expensive. It also says the six that year had 242 Cu. In.; a cast iron block; 60 h.p.(a lot for 1923);  Buick built its 1,000,000th car March 21st, and a specially-prepared Mod. 54 2-Dr. Sport Roadster hit 108.24 mph at Muroc Dry Lake(not too shabby). Options: disc wheels, front bumper, spotlight, white sidewall tires, wind wings, spare tire cover, taillights(diamond-shaped), and heater(Perfection types AB, GB). You probably aren't interested because of the distance, but you could take 1 to 5 days of antique auto restoration classes in November. The largest car museum in the country, Reynolds-Alberta Museum in Wetaskiwin, Alberta has classes giving you an overview of things like metal repair, painting, and researching a car.

 

   My opinion on adding a modern chassis or engine. Some people claim hot rods are somehow worth more than antique cars, and using examples of ones that sell for 300 grand, but ignoring the hundreds that are for sale on places like autabuy.com and classiccars.com for a few thousand, or ones that people start but can't finish. Unless you are trying to build a cheap car out of mismatched parts(1932 Ford V-8 in a Model T Ford) or a drag-racing machine(427 supercharged V-8 in a Chevrolet Vega), like some of the earlier hot rods, one is building sort of an imaginary car. There never was a Hot Rod car company, so the thing is just disguising a car from one year to look like another year. Just my opinion, but this is an antique automobile forum. 

Edited September 7, 2018 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[Simnut]

Ahhh...can post again.  Got a message that I had maxed out my posts for the day!

 

No worries everyone about the car going hot rod!  It will be carefully gone over this winter with the goal to drive it to the local Show and Shine here in town late August of next year.  She will be as original as I can make her.  This project is completely different than what I thought it was going to be but that's not a bad thing! 

 

Being originally from Red Deer , Alberta....I may just look into that idea Jeff!  I can visit family at the same time. 

 

Here are a couple more pics.  One of where the car is now residing and one from the back as requested by John.  The pic from the back isn't real clear as the sun was pretty bright and I will replace when I get a better one.

 

[Simnut]

Look what I found in the car today!

[Morgan Wright]

What is Alta? Was that a province in 1923?

[jeff_a]

Ski Capitol of Utah...............or Alberta, abbreviated "ALTA" or "AB".

[bradsan]

Harry

 

The Alberta plate is an interesting find.

Do you know anything about the history of the car? Do you have a title or registration?

I'm not sure about Alberta but in BC, ICBC acts as the registrar of motor vehicles and has records going back to the 1900's

If you have a bill of sale showing you own the car and want to spend $25 on a notary, you can submit a request for a registration search.

Most cars back in the 20'and 30's were registered by engine number so you'll want to include all available ID numbers. ( frame , engine , etc ) .

If they find your car , there are steps you can take to have the vehicle registration put into your name instead of applying for a 'builders registration'

If you want some more details, send me a PM.

 

20's Buicks are lots of fun and a bit of a challenge because there are no real parts suppliers other than the good people that you'll meet on this forum.

 

Brad

[Guest]

1 hour ago, bradsan said:

Most cars back in the 20'and 30's were registered by engine number so you'll want to include all available ID numbers. ( frame , engine , etc ) .

In Canadian provinces most of the cars with serial numbers were registered using that number. There may have been exceptions but I have never seen one.  Ford of course was one exception as the Model T only had an engine number.

[Simnut]

Yup.....that's an Alberta plate!  Wouldn't that be awesome if it was this car's first plate?  I was born and raised in Alberta....moved to BC in 1979.  I also know a historian in Red Deer whom I have sent info on our family's past in Red Deer and he may be a good source also.  Maybe this old girl needs a good Albertan to get her dolled up again.

 

I do not know anything of the history of the car...well ...except the last few days of it.    This will be my goal for the remaining summer/fall months , to find as much as possible on this particular Buick.  I will take Brad's advice on where to start.....already have the Alberta licensing website bookmarked!  They will be receiving an email from me this morning!  Who knows eh, the story this car could tell.  Just have to pry it out of her.

 

I have to thank y'all again for getting me going in the awesome world of cars that have and tell history.  I'm also glad I found this particular car !  Why?  Because she has the lines to make a cool hot rod  (which attracted me in the first place) but because of the condition, she is going to lead me into the history of herself and Buicks etc. in general....a direction I NEVER expected.  My number one source.....this forum!

 

I may ramble on a bit on here but I'm excited.  The more I find out, the more I want to find out. LOL. 

 

PS:  Have I mentioned I found this car just a mile from my house? 

 

 

Edited September 7, 2018 by Simnut (see edit history)

[Simnut]

11 hours ago, 24-6-51a said:

Welcome, 

I too am a new owner to the Buick Marquee having recently acquired a 24-6-51A and the members here have been vary helpful and patient with all my questions and lack of knowledge. Thanks to them I am learning and being able to track down the original parts I need and educate me so I find the correct authentic parts to make sure my car is put back to its original condition. I personally think it is more rewarding to be a steward of automotive history, and it takes more effort, diligence, determination and is more challenging to get it right and put it back to its original factory condition than making something into a hotrod or resto-mod, and one thing I believe by reading comments and articles about the pros and cons of modifying an older bodied car is this, no matter the modern modifications you make, you still have a wood and metal skinned bodied that isnt designed or built to be in an accident at modern speeds. And for that reason alone, maybe its safer to keep a car original so you have to drive within the limits of its original engineering. But all that aside, this is a great group for support for us newbies. ??

 

 

Well said sir!  You said a great line there that I think will stick in my head every time I think of my Buick. 

 

Quote

I personally think it is more rewarding to be a steward of automotive history, and it takes more effort, diligence, determination and is more challenging to get it right and put it back to its original factory condition than making something into a hotrod or resto-mod

 

  If the '23 that I bought was in rough shape or just the body for example....I probably would have continued on my hot rod route.  She has beautiful lines and this is what attracted me to it when I found it.  But, when I could drive it onto my trailer, off the trailer and into my garage I started to rethink.  That "caused" me to find this forum and the rest is history as they say.   That is why I mentioned earlier that I'm glad I found this car.  She slapped me upside the head and said....."Are you nuts dude?  I can take  you to town tomorrow...why change me up?"   

 

  Who else here has a comfy chair setup by their car so they can just sit down, have a beer or something and just enjoy looking at their car(s)? 

[Hubert_25-25]

Harry,

    Some more cool things about your car.

- The starter generator is a single unit.  It weighs 60 lbs.  They are not a lot of fun to lift into place.  They are a Rube Goldberg contraption.  Like patting your head and rubbing your belly at the same time.  When you first switch on the ignition, it begins to "motor" and then the starter gear can be pushed in with the floor pedal.  

- There are 2 one way clutches in the SG unit, one on the distributor end, and one on the flywheel end.  

- The water pump has a seal on both ends (2 places to leak water).  In 1926, Buick went to separate starter generators.  Now the water pump had a blank plate on the end so it only needed one seal.  That is a big improvement.

- The water pump is driven off a 3rd gear in the timing assembly.  The cam gear is fiber.  If the water pump is frozen, you can damage the fiber gear that drives the camshaft.

- No rubber at the time.  Felt is used for seals through out the car.   Some of these you may want to upgrade to lip seals, but the felt does a decent job in the right application. 

- Your car has a leather fan belt.

- You have no oil filter.  Oil changes are around every 500 miles.  Basically if the oil looks a little dirty, it is time for a change.

- Consider dropping the oil pan one day to clean it out.  They used non detergent oil for a long time, and it leaves a lot of sludge in the oil pan.

- People don't understand the levers on the steering wheel.  

 - The throttle lever is for cold starts, as modern cars raise the idle speed when cold.  You also need to be able to lower the speed at times to make shifting easier.  It can work as a cruise control but you have to be very careful using it as such since there is no brake cut off.

- The spark lever should be full up when starting.  This sets the spark at 7 degrees after TDC so that the car will not backfire and spin backwards.  (verify yours is properly set).  This is essential as a safety measure when hand cranking.  People love to see you hand start your car.  It is also a good practice to always use the starter in this position to make it easier on the starter.  Set the spark lever mid way after starting for getting around town, and full down if cruising. 

Being a master of the spark and throttle levers and a non synchronized transmission is very rewarding.  It is a skill that comes from practice. 

Avoid down shifting to some extent.   Get good at double clutching.  (Push the clutch in for neutral, then another clutch push for the next gear.)  

Your H pattern for shifting may be backwards.  I know mine is.  

There are a lot of grease fittings on the car.  They all will need fresh grease.

Your engine is very unique as technology was really advancing quickly at the time.  

Hugh

 

[Simnut]

Nice!  Great info Hugh!  

 

Double clutching is something I'm not afraid of....learned on old farm trucks in Alberta (old 5 and 4's etc).  I realize every vehicle will have it's own sweet spots as far as shifting etc.  And yes, the H pattern is backwards on this one also as is yours. 

 

What I'm starting to realize (with the help of all of you) is that they made these cars for one year, in this configuration.  Last year of rear brakes only , first year of this body style for instance.   Sitting here going over material I'm thinking this was one of the last ones made that year too.   And, it may be a Mode 41.  Bear with me and I'll show you what I'm seeing.  Please correct me if I'm wrong though!

 

All literature I can find ( at this point) , doesn't show a Model 40 6 cylinder model for that year.   Here are a couple of photos:

 

The first image shows a 23-41 Double Service Sedan with all the right parameters.  Notice the engine number #900160 and up.   On the second photo , the 23-41 shows 8719 made of that model.  Now my math is...      My engine number #909339  less the starting engine #900160 equals 9179 which is greater than the 23-41 touring sedans made that year.  But again...as you see in the following photo, the reference book doesn't show a 23-40....but begins at 23-41.   Yup....this is gonna be confusing! lol  But fun............

 

[29StudiePrez]

Simnut,

you might want to check other 1923 Reference (Owners) manuals, just because a 23-40 is not listed in that one doesn't mean it they didn't come out with it later or earlier and then discontiue it. I have 2 Reference (Owners) Manuals for 1924. One has 10 models that were available on one printing, and the other one shows 14 Models available for that year. Unfortunately Buick for some reason didnt put publishing or revision dates on this literature 

Edited September 7, 2018 by 24-6-51a
Typos (see edit history)

[Simnut]

3 hours ago, 24-6-51a said:

Simnut,

you might want to check other 1923 Reference (Owners) manuals, just because a 23-40 is not listed in that one doesn't mean it they didn't come out with it later or earlier and then discontiue it. I have 2 Reference (Owners) Manuals for 1924. One has 10 models that were available on one printing, and the other one shows 14 Models available for that year. Unfortunately Buick for some reason didnt put publishing or revision dates on this literature 

 

I have a lot to learn, don't I ?

[29StudiePrez]

Hey I'm new to all of this also and am right there with you. ?

[ROD W]

Here,s a bit more information on 1923

[ROD W]

And some more.  With a chassis/frame  number of 869070  your car would have been built in late 1922.  Maybe  Sept or Oct.  As you can see 1923 was the last of the cage valve engines.

Edited September 8, 2018 by ROD W (see edit history)